Hattons Solicitors Banner
RedVee Merchandise At CraftyTees.co.uk
Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Current form

  1. #1
    Got A Season Ticket
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    146
    Rep Power
    2

    Default Current form

    Morning All. Does Saints current form vindicate KC in any way. Or does it demonstrate JH's ability as a coach? This run of wins has been achieved with the same squad KC assembled? My own view is that it's a bit of both. Maybe recruitment wasn't as poor as some of us thought, with a few obvious exceptions. On the other hand tactics, selection and performance have all improved.

    What do others think?

  2. #2
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    7,914
    Rep Power
    17

    Default

    I think the results under Cunningham were the least of his problems. The poor form of the team under Cunningham was IMO a bi product of his bigger mistakes. He was stubborn, signed crap players, gave dubious contract extensions to favoured players, let the senior players get away with murder, coached defeatist rugby in big games, reluctantly played youngsters and then threw them under the bus, insulted the fans etc.

    Im not taking anything away from Holbrook but as of yet he hasn't done anything super special, just what's expected of any competent coach, and its benefitting the team. He has no loyalty to anyone and picks form players. Its that simple IMO.
    Last edited by fishy3005; 11th August 2017 at 07:08.
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

  3. #3
    Learning All The Songs The Chief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Newton-le-Willows
    Age
    43
    Posts
    1,576
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Cunningham played antirugby, and signed some joe average players to play antirugby, he then refused to change when the fans demanded it, that was his downfall.

  4. #4
    Learning All The Songs STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    1,055
    Rep Power
    2

    Default

    Man Management and Game Plan Philosophy was his problem which deeply rutted him during his first inexperienced year. He wanted percentage error free rugby before anything else, very much a blinkered approach which eventually got to the players and "the " grind" was complete.

    Holbrook arrives, doesn't make many changes, we created a lot of errors because we started to play expansive rugby but the most important thing was team spirit which built confidence in there approach to games.

    So in the end the club eventually listened to the fans, McManus had no choice in abandoning the "Cunningham Ideal" if he hadn't I have no doubt a lot of support would have vanished for 2018.

    Current form is pretty good but I don't think we not out of the woods just yet, next couple of weeks Barba comes onto the scene, we have lots of players competing for limited positions which is promoting positive challenges within, if we succeed in finishing in the top 4 then the season has been rescued for supporters demanding high expectations.
    Last edited by STIDDY; 11th August 2017 at 07:27.

  5. #5
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    502
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    We were shit under Cunningham end of

  6. #6
    Learning All The Songs yogi bear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,482
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Morning All. Does Saints current form vindicate KC in any way. Or does it demonstrate JH's ability as a coach? This run of wins has been achieved with the same squad KC assembled? My own view is that it's a bit of both. Maybe recruitment wasn't as poor as some of us thought, with a few obvious exceptions. On the other hand tactics, selection and performance have all improved.

    What do others think?
    Absolutely not,

    If KC was still here we'd still be watching Owens instead of Grace, Wilkin covering 7 instead of Richardson, Lee possibly starting at 9, Greg Richards in the 17, probably not looking at Barba,

    We'd also be watching our forwards run the ball in ones - running at 3 and 4 tacklers expected to "win the grind" and when that fails kick on the 3rd. For a guy who knows everything about RL he certainly made some strange choices.

  7. #7
    Learning All The Songs Tabasco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Rivington Road, St Helens
    Posts
    1,698
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yogi bear View Post
    Absolutely not,

    If KC was still here we'd still be watching Owens instead of Grace, Wilkin covering 7 instead of Richardson, Lee possibly starting at 9, Greg Richards in the 17, probably not looking at Barba,

    We'd also be watching our forwards run the ball in ones - running at 3 and 4 tacklers expected to "win the grind" and when that fails kick on the 3rd. For a guy who knows everything about RL he certainly made some strange choices.
    ...and we'd probably be looking forward to games against Featherstone, London, Halifax and HKR while fearing the prospect of the 1m game.

  8. #8
    Learning All The Songs Dux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Liverpool
    Posts
    2,020
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Our current form just demonstrates how much this team was being held back by KC's rugby philosophy, IMO.

  9. #9
    Got A Season Ticket
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    449
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    Our current form just demonstrates how much this team was being held back by KC's rugby philosophy, IMO.
    Absolutely this, KC will always remain one of the best players to ever play for St Helens. Unfortunately for him he will also be remembered as one of, if not the worst, coach. His signings were absolutely awful, he overlooked youngsters to play senior players who were well out of form out of position. He criticised anyone who dared to do anything other than charge it up the middle and threw youngsters under the bus when it was the senior players letting him down. I frankly lost interest in the results because I just wanted him to be fired, our style of play really was that boring to watch.

    I would say practically every single player is performing much better under JH and the ones in the squad who were too poor to even be considered have been shipped off quickly never to play for Saints again. As others have said, JH so far is just doing what any competent coach should do. KC was nothing short of awful and I'm glad EM finally saw the light as he should have been gone at the end of last season.

  10. #10
    Noooobie
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    9
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Completely agree with Nator, couldn't have said it better myself. With regards to Holbrook, I am impressed so far. The next 2 seasons are the real test for him, he's made what we have much better, let's see how his recruitment/progression of youngsters is.

  11. #11
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,594
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Morning All. Does Saints current form vindicate KC in any way. Or does it demonstrate JH's ability as a coach? This run of wins has been achieved with the same squad KC assembled? My own view is that it's a bit of both. Maybe recruitment wasn't as poor as some of us thought, with a few obvious exceptions. On the other hand tactics, selection and performance have all improved.

    What do others think?
    I think it highlights just how far out of his depth KC was as a coach. The rigid clinging to a gameplan that was boring and not working. Since JH came in we look a different team,all playing for each other and for the coach. A coach who is animated and enthusiast on the sideline.

  12. #12
    In The South Stand Paul Newlove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    2,770
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yogi bear View Post
    Absolutely not,

    If KC was still here we'd still be watching Owens instead of Grace, Wilkin covering 7 instead of Richardson, Lee possibly starting at 9, Greg Richards in the 17, probably not looking at Barba,

    We'd also be watching our forwards run the ball in ones - running at 3 and 4 tacklers expected to "win the grind" and when that fails kick on the 3rd. For a guy who knows everything about RL he certainly made some strange choices.
    Correct, we seem a million miles away from those days. Awful time for the club and for the fans was KCs reign.

  13. #13
    Noooobie The King is Dead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    19
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    KC not only massively undervalued James Roby but considered Tommy Lee to be a worthy replacement. Genius KC may have been on the field but this was idiotic to say the least.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    In The South Stand CHANNEL22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    2,837
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    KC would no doubt say "Look, I told you this team would come good, but I didn't get the chance to see my plans through to the end"


    I didn't get a ST in 2016, simple because I was so bored in 2015. I went 3 games last season and have not been this season. If time permits I will go tonight as I like what I am seeing. Last week at Castleford was the most professional and confident performance I have seen for many a year. We never looked in any danger. We never looked like we were going to buckle. I cannot remember the last time I saw a game that we always looked like winning. Even in the days of DA

    Even in the games we have lost under JH we have showed effort and enthusiasm including two players (LMS & Amor) who I have continually criticised for their lack of contributions.

    IMO if KC was still coach, (and I hate to say this about a club legend as a player) we would not be looking at Top 4, maybe not even Top 8 and our away record would still show no wins. Neither would we have Barba.
    St Helens Openwater Swimming Society


    On the way to Calais

  15. #15
    Got A Season Ticket
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Royton, Oldham
    Posts
    235
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    I wrote this over a month ago on another thread, and I stand by it:-


    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    Many journeymen players become good coaches in any sport however many stars fall by the wayside too.

    Can you imagine (rightly or wrongly) KC sitting in the changing rooms contemplating the players he's got and which system to use to get results.

    Knowing that there just wasn't the skillset, level or acumen to play "the saints way" he decided (wrongly) that the way forward was the grind.

    I'm certain he would have loved "wide to west" every week, and "never write off the Saints" throwing the ball around with gay abandon however his misguided loyalty to players was his downfall, and the inability to integrate youngsters into the squad to inject a little panache and selection fear for the "regulars"

    Putting that aside we now have a coach with zero loyalty to any players. He hasn't come through with them and played alongside, coached or trained with them for years and for me this is positive. He's also clearly telling them to pass the ball around. The tactic in the Leeds game was to take it wide and up the edges in our own half, pretty much the reverse of "the grind" up the middle and seemed to give us some good territory.

    I get the vibe that regardless of his "win as a team lose as a team" philosophy he'll be ruthless if needed.

    Only time will tell but I still feel we're far closer than we were under KC and next season will be very different.

    We are still a bit Jekyll and Hyde but fingers crossed......
    Get busy living, or get busy dying.

  16. #16
    In The West Stand Blobbynator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    7,280
    Rep Power
    21

    Default

    The difference between Cunningham's philosophy and Holbrook's philosophy is night and day.

    Our style of play was predictable, boring and rigid under Cunningham and he signed players that suited that style of play. He contradicted himself in the press, he slated players on minute (especially younger players) and then praised them when they underperformed the next. As a fan, I'd never been as fed up and bored watching Saints to the point where I had a feeling of dread and then apathy towards watching Saints. He was ruining our club sadly because he was underqualified at his job.

    The change under Holbrook has been huge. There is a genuine feel good factor around the club now and the shift in attitude across the club has completely changed. His positive, but firm approach to coaching has completely changed the focus and confidence for everyone at the club. Some of the dead wood has already been shifted, players who were never ever good enough for this club - Jack Owens, Greg Richards and probably Adam Walker too. Tommy Lee is out of the 17 and it seems likely he will go if we can get somebody to take him off our hands and Adam Swift hasn't featured for weeks as Holbrook has picked a more dynamic and exciting player in Grace. His 1st signing was a statement signing and I've no doubt Holbrook had a fair say on it and influenced Barba to come here. The way we play now is also pretty exciting and some of the games we've been involved in recently have been edge of your seat stuff. He's also got some of the underperformers playing well for us e.g. LMS & Peyroux and some of the players who were stagnating under KC have kicked on again e.g. Luke Thompson.

    It's by no means perfect and some of the games have been slightly frustrating (Leeds and Hudds away for example) and the skill levels needs to improve at Saints (although we have seen some steady improvements over the last few months definitely). A few more players will also need to be shifted on, but I'm very excited for next season in particular when Holbrook has worked on our attacking game and got us away from KC's plan and more towards how he wants us to play the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Despondent Dave
    Blobby is a man of style, panache and impeccable taste

  17. #17
    Learning All The Songs Gerry Mander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Around the Ruck. Winning the Collision.
    Posts
    1,695
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    The difference between Cunningham's philosophy and Holbrook's philosophy is night and day.

    Our style of play was predictable, boring and rigid under Cunningham and he signed players that suited that style of play. He contradicted himself in the press, he slated players on minute (especially younger players) and then praised them when they underperformed the next. As a fan, I'd never been as fed up and bored watching Saints to the point where I had a feeling of dread and then apathy towards watching Saints. He was ruining our club sadly because he was underqualified at his job.

    The change under Holbrook has been huge. There is a genuine feel good factor around the club now and the shift in attitude across the club has completely changed. His positive, but firm approach to coaching has completely changed the focus and confidence for everyone at the club. Some of the dead wood has already been shifted, players who were never ever good enough for this club - Jack Owens, Greg Richards and probably Adam Walker too. Tommy Lee is out of the 17 and it seems likely he will go if we can get somebody to take him off our hands and Adam Swift hasn't featured for weeks as Holbrook has picked a more dynamic and exciting player in Grace. His 1st signing was a statement signing and I've no doubt Holbrook had a fair say on it and influenced Barba to come here. The way we play now is also pretty exciting and some of the games we've been involved in recently have been edge of your seat stuff. He's also got some of the underperformers playing well for us e.g. LMS & Peyroux and some of the players who were stagnating under KC have kicked on again e.g. Luke Thompson.

    It's by no means perfect and some of the games have been slightly frustrating (Leeds and Hudds away for example) and the skill levels needs to improve at Saints (although we have seen some steady improvements over the last few months definitely). A few more players will also need to be shifted on, but I'm very excited for next season in particular when Holbrook has worked on our attacking game and got us away from KC's plan and more towards how he wants us to play the game.
    When you consider Holbrook was a scratch appointment coming in at short notice and the rest of the club infrastructure has remained the same (the CEO , KCs whole coaching team and the current squad) he has done very well indeed.

  18. #18
    In The South Stand
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,113
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yogi bear View Post
    Absolutely not,

    If KC was still here we'd still be watching Owens instead of Grace, Wilkin covering 7 instead of Richardson, Lee possibly starting at 9, Greg Richards in the 17, probably not looking at Barba,

    We'd also be watching our forwards run the ball in ones - running at 3 and 4 tacklers expected to "win the grind" and when that fails kick on the 3rd. For a guy who knows everything about RL he certainly made some strange choices.
    Well that saved me writing my opinion.

  19. #19
    Learning All The Songs Tabasco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Rivington Road, St Helens
    Posts
    1,698
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    I'm not really sure that Cunningham ever had a proper plan, or even the strategic/tactical nous to develop one. Great hooker though he was, in my view his game as a player was based purely on pace and power rather than the ability to identify and implement different moves to unlock the opposition. He certainly was never in the Cameron Smith mould and was totally lacking a kicking game. He was, however, lucky enough to be in teams with several equally outstanding players in their individual positions but also some who could break down the opposition at any point in the game (eg Goulding, Long, Martyn, Sculthorpe and Hammond). With hindsight, I can accept that it was overly optimistic to think that he could view a game as a coach in a manner that he was incapable of as a player.

  20. #20
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    near leigh
    Posts
    2,151
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Can we please turn the page on the past and look forward to the Holbrook future.

  21. #21
    Learning All The Songs Albion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,428
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    I think the big difference is that the players seem a lot happier and a lot more committed. They are playing with smiles on their faces and appear to be playing and fighting for each other. There is a belief and confidence around the team. I think this has to be down to Holbrook as he is sounds like a really positive person, he does not sugar coat anything and he does not believe his own hype. He is the complete antithesis of Cunningham and I think that has really improved the team spirit and performance/energy levels.

    Holbrook has also made the right calls at the right time. We shipped out Richards and Owens and we have not seen much of Lee. I now trust the coaches to get it right in terms of selections and I am far more accepting of what they do. There was almost an element of the fans vs Cunningham with team selection and I do not think that helped the atmosphere. I think the players probably feel the same way and now trust Holbrook.

    I think Holbrook has changed a few things, but I still think our attack needs to improve if we are to win the grand final. We still look a bit 'clunky' and we are dropping far too much ball. If it was not for our defence we would have been in trouble last week. We made approx. 60 more tackles than Cas. That means they had nearly 10 sets with the ball more than we had. I do not think we will be able to maintain that level of effort throughout the super 8s and into the playoffs.

    If we can get something going with ball in hand then there is no reason why we cannot get to the grand final and win it.

    I agree with what Phil Clarke said after the Cas game. He said that the last time we played so well was against Hull at Magic and we were not able to maintain that level of performance. If we are able to back it up tonight and next week vs Leeds, then we will be in prime position to get either 2nd or 3rd with the run in we have. There is no reason why we cannot beat the top 3 teams now.

  22. #22
    In The South Stand Greengrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    In the Queens Arms dreading the King coming home early.
    Posts
    3,993
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    Does "Vindicate" mean nail him to the floor because that is what has happened. JH in a short time has evaluated the players got rid of the KC Favourites and now have a different style and appetite for playing more attractive Rugby League.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

  23. #23
    Got A Season Ticket
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    373
    Rep Power
    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Ged View Post
    Can we please turn the page on the past and look forward to the Holbrook future.
    Our squad is okay - but a lot of improvement can be made.

    I'm very happy to enjoy our current form, put the past behind us and look forward to the future. It appears we're moving in a good direction - and we have a good opportunity for the remainder of this season. This is something unexpected and very pleasing. It would be quite something to achieve success this season - though i think a better indication of Holbrook's credentials as a coach will be the following seasons.

  24. #24
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,183
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    I enjoyed this summary of our season... https://twitter.com/SuperLeague/stat...32822447194112

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •